Comments

Gender stereotypes may be both good and bad depending on the "eyes of the beholder" and the situation at hand. I have known those of one gender for whom their driving goal was to attain many attributes of the stereotypes of the "other" gender. I have known those who are happy with the gender roles assigned them by their culture and have given little or no thought to change. I have known folks who have stretched gender "norms" in all directions to suit themselves and appreciated the freedom of which generations past could only dream. In one case I have also known of a person born with female genitalia who chose to transition to male and turned out still to by a jerk! (rude, lacking empathy for others, oh,... and a cheater) Folks are folks, they come in lots of variation and gender issues are only a part. I personally prefer to spend my favorite time with a particular someone of the "opposite" gender as they do the same, :-)!!! So... please find another "catch phrase" as "post-gender" gets attention, but, it is offensive.

Submitted by JAL (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 4:05pm.

Way to get them talking Cayden!

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 11:32am.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 11:14pm.

I have a quick statement to make as I tripped upon this article as I was surfing the web. Have you ever considered not duality in pure existence. There is no male/female sex in the spiritual plain. What we do in the physical world is not reality. It is the framework of our perception. Now my suggestion would be to pick up a couple of books in the new age section. A Course in Miracles and maybe The Disappearance of the Universe which talk about duality vs non-duality and existence and pure existence. So I guess if you read how Jesus' teachings can be misinterpreted easily it may convince you that a person can completely disassociate themselves from their individuality, oh scary stuff now,and love someone of the same sex because let's face it, when we are dead there is no sex/gender. Just spirituality that sees not sex, color or creed.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 12:00pm.

In such troubled times as these, we must all ask ourselves: "WWFSMD?" May He touch you with His noodly appendage as he has touched me.

--A devout Pastafarian

Submitted by Pastafarian Acolyte (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 12:29pm.

MMMMM....Meatballs...

Submitted by Fisty Cupcake (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 4:16am.

Before I even begin, this post is not directed at the vast majority of people who have commented but toward those who are reading critically rather than simply reacting. This article doesn't open up for debate the legitimacy of trans people existing or being represented, so perhaps we should question the motives of the naysayers rather than dignifying them with thoughtful responses.

First of all, I want to say thanks to Cayden and Charlie for stepping up, being brave, and being visible. It takes guts to put yourself in the spotlight in this way. Second, as much as yet another “introducing trans” article in a student paper makes me groan, there is a need for such basic primers. This isn’t a terrible one. I appreciate the efforts of everyone involved in making this happen and have nothing but nice things to say about Cayden in particular. But nobody’s voice gets to trump anyone else’s in a conversation about identity, and that’s how I’d like to frame what I have to say here, as part of a conversation that can continue. I’m sure that Cayden, Kristen, and all of you will understand that I also need to say my piece and that I won’t necessarily agree with everything said. Which leads me to my first point, that it’s really, really tough to speak for the whole of trans identity.

When I was approached by the author, I presented her with my concerns, and on the whole I was satisfied that her intentions were good:

"I understand that this topic is a very sensitive one for many people and so I am taking many precautions to make sure it is in no way offensive. More than anything in this article I want to examine what it means to be a particular gender and how those students who identify as transgender are accepted on campus. My editor wants me to take a "day in the life" approach and I told her that I do not think that would be best because if there is one thing I have learned since starting to research this article is that gender identity is different for every single person and like you said below to create a stereotype of a transgender person is do that person and the entire community a disservice."

However, despite the disclaimer that she has worked hard to avoid being “offensive,” there’s a lot less at stake when you write such an article for a student paper as a non-trans person and your investment (if any) is unclear. I don’t mean to claim that she can’t write this article or that it is fundamentally flawed, but I do have some reservations. That's not especially new; most available representation (or lack thereof) of trans folks by non-trans people frustrates me. But this happened here and so it hits close to home. So here are some brief thoughts:

#1: None of us can accurately represent what is ultimately a very diverse set of identities and communities, and our experiences at Michigan are very different from person to person. This is a big problem when you put a particular person in the limelight. And most seriously, violence against trans people (disproportionately toward trans women) is a common and severe threat. Outing a trans person, even if they are generally already out, potentially has serious, dangerous consequences.

#2: About sensationalism. Trans people are frequently visible only as a curiosity for the entertainment of non-trans (cisgender/cissexual) readers and viewers. Think of Maury Povich and Jerry Springer episodes as an example. This article isn't *that* bad, but there's still an element of "look at the weirdos."

In particular I was curious how much of Cayden’s characterization as “post gender” as well as “stereotypically masculine” was in context and came from him. Perhaps he can clear this up for me. But frankly I thought both statements *in the context of the article* (which is to say without much context at all) were problematic. What impression of trans people is this article going to give readers? The question of whether trans people transcend gender or represent it normally is not a harmless one, and deserves more discussion in addition to careful thought and language. Not all of us want to transcend, destroy, or move past gender, and more importantly, not all of us have that ability. Trans women, and indeed many trans men, will testify that moving past gender is a lot easier when you can pass as either gender. It might also be more appealing to live your gender queerly when you’re in a privileged environment and position, say for example a major research university in a small Midwestern town?
This question has been discussed to death amongst trans people, and while there aren’t any concrete conclusions or absolutely right-on opinions on the matter, I think it’s safe to say that people are skeptical that they can be either transcendent or "normal" when that implies cissexual. It’s worth taking a grain of salt with the idea that we’re somehow beyond gender or that we’re unambiguously typical.

#3: Experiences of harassment and violence happen everywhere but the accounts I’ve heard in Ann Arbor are decidedly different from what I’ve heard coming out of Detroit. Being “bashed” is used, in my opinion, a little too loosely in this town. Conflating a shoving and a verbal taunt to being physically beaten, put in the hospital, raped, or outright killed doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Getting shit from doctors fucking sucks, no doubt, but what a luxury to have health care in the first place!

#4: Why are there only transmasculine people in this article?

Now, I have to fess up: I was approached to be involved in this article and declined. I have my reasons, and they are good ones. But seriously, was no one else available? Trans men and women have very different challenges, both in general and specifically on this campus.

#5: I wish the article had focused more on college-specific issues, not just general trans stuff . And while the bathroom issue is real, (for instance the entire Angell complex only has one neutral bathroom, because I requested it,) I am *fucking sick* of "lol bathrooms wtf". If this is your biggest challenge as a trans person on campus, who are you?

#6: Although the author notes that trans people who haven’t had surgery sometimes lack access to University Services, it’s a side note rather than the focus of the article. That sucks.

#7: I don’t completely buy the argument that hormones entail gender. As a woman and a feminist I’ve averse to conflations of biology and identity, and as a trans person who has experienced the effects of *both* kinds of HRT in her life I’m especially suspicious of broad claims that reduce a complex network of psychological, physiological, and behavioral changes (to name a few) to the balance of hormones in the body. This sentence in particular really rubbed me the wrong way:

"Already, after only four months, Mak said he has a voice that is an octave and a half lower, is able to grow some facial hair, has seen an increase in his muscle mass, is constantly horny and easily angered — all qualities generally associated with increased testosterone."

Yes, these qualities (or more accurately effects) generally *are* associated with testosterone. They're also stereotypes of what men are. But this comes from a long, well-documented history of humans looking for gender difference and gender success in a pill, chemical, or organ. I have no doubt that Cayden is growing facial hair or that his voice has dropped, or for that matter that he’s very often horny and angry. But even trans guys have to work out to build muscle. Most women have some facial hair and many have deeper voices than either mine or Cayden’s.

As for emotions and sexual desire, talk about complicated issues! I have some idea that changes in hormones cause changes in emotions, but let’s reframe this: puberty causes mood swings. We’re socialized to expect men to have a large amount of anger and otherwise emotionally unavailable or numb. But does testosterone really turn up the anger and turn down the everything-else so neatly? Or is this a psychosomatic issue?

Let me propose an idea. Get ready, because it’s kind of out there: being told incessantly that it’s okay for boys to get angry (and violent) or for girls to cry MIGHT play a role in how we experience relatively minor shifts in biology. Hormones are neither the sole cause, nor even the most significant cause, of how we change as we transition.

Let’s talk about women for a minute. What does it mean to completely accept that hormones make us excessively emotional? It means accepting that body=destiny, an idea that is *clearly* anathema to claiming a trans identity. We’ve gone through this so many times, whether it’s called hysteria or something less obvious, and it’s time to stop. I’m sorry, but however dramatic the effects of hormones might feel, they’re not the unambiguous cause of your transition. I won’t accept that because someone’s body has a (mildly) larger portion of testosterone in it, their anger is more available and pressing than mine. I’ve been on both sides of hormones; this is my third puberty and I’m here to tell you that none of those three experiences completely determined who I am. I didn’t lose my capacity for rational thought, anger, or physical strength when I transitioned and became a woman any more than trans guys suddenly gained them.
Back to desire for a moment: okay, being on T makes you horny. But T didn’t do that for me. Estrogen and testosterone blockers didn’t blot out my desire to fuck and be fucked any more than they do so for cissexual women; quite the opposite. Here’s another idea: maybe seeing your body as sexy makes you horny, and testosterone is only one of the tools you’re using to do that?

And please, let’s give ourselves some credit here. We were complete people before we hit puberty, during it, and after, and the same goes for any subsequent puberties. My trans friends who aren’t on hormones for whatever reason are just as much men and women (or something else entirely) as any post-transition or cissexual person I know. It’s not only unfair to act like hormones make the man, it’s oppressive to those in our community who aren’t on hormones. It makes them invisible and delegitimizes them. It bespeaks our privilege and entitlement. It reinforces the idea that I you haven’t done “X” specific act, you’re not really what you say you are. And it’s rude.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 1:22am.

and don't expect people to accept your issues.

expect them to accept you as a person, fine. accept your baggage? your gender issues, no. they don't care about your issues they have their own. any thought someone has about what sex you are, what bathroom you use or how you get off lasts 5 seconds before they are back to whatever thing they were doing before.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 2:11am.

Well clearly those are the standards that YOU live up to. Fortunately, some of us can look beyond our own noses and relate to other people. It is how humanity has survived, by being a social and cooperative species. Working and relating with others is how society works. If you care so little for your fellow man, do everyone a favor and lock yourself away. Obviously you don't like us, so why should we have to deal with you?

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 1:18am.

if you were born a girl you are a girl, just because you don't feel like a girl doesn't make you not a girl. I accept you were born a girl but didn't feel like a girl. If you were born a girl and want to be a boy because you think you should be a boy aren't you basically saying you don't accept yourself as a girl? Why would you seek to "change" yourself? can you just be happy being a girl but not girly? or being a girl whos butch or practically a guy?

seems to me that sex reassignment surgery won't solve your problems. If you have identity issues you always will, no matter what crapper you use or what parts you have. Some people think plastic surgery or fake tan will make them happier, it doesn't. Accept who you are as you are don't try to become someone else.

Why would anyone want to be a guy anyway, women have all the power.
Don't put yourself thru hormone crap and surgery. If you want pills ask the doctor for some vitamin H.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 10:43pm.

How did you work through your gender transition?

You demonstrate so much knowledge and confidence, I'm sure many would benefit from your first hand account.

Certainly, one would not speak so confidently about the challenges of gender identity with such absolutes or without pertinent life experience.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 11:15pm.

"When I agreed to be interviewed for this article I wanted it to be a learning experience for others and raise awareness." What a fabrication!! Is there anyone on campus that is not aware that there are transgender students? What did anyone learn from this expose that they did not already know? This article is purely a political ploy, nothing else. The national organizations of LGBT students and campus activists push for these testimonials to feed the victim image. It is a well rehearsed strategy.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 12:56am.

Of course, your blatant attack on LGBT students kind of also feeds the "victim image"... in fact, your post pretty much validates it. So if you had any doubt before...

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 10:55pm.

The struggles of transgendered individuals are very real and often heart wrenching. Yet, after trying to convince us that gender identity is an artificial construct, Mak is undergoing a prolonged and painful procedure to change his/her gender. Why would a person subject themselves to this if gender identity was not at the heart of how we view ourselves? The real lesson is that in some indivudals, gender is not determined by physical traits, rather by emotional and psychological associations. Nevertheless, gender identity is as important to the transgendered individual as it is to most everyone else. It is part of the human condition and not something we are apt to change by progressive thought.

Submitted by Hope (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 6:38pm.

Little known fact: Cayden Mak makes amazing cappoucino foam.

Love me some Cayden.

Submitted by Charlie (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 6:15pm.

The first thing I would like to say over this heated debate to both sides is "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get" (Matthew 7:1-2). I use this passage because religion has already been brought up and is typically mentioned in these debates. No matter what religion you believe in if any, I would like to digress this passage away from God and say that just because you have different beliefs in what is and isn't right doesn't mean that you should judge others based on it. When I agreed to be interviewed for this article I wanted it to be a learning experience for others and raise awareness. To those who feel gender identity issues are being pushed in their face, simple solution: don't read the article. Maybe I'm wrong and someone tied you down, forced your eyelids open, and held the article in front of your face in which case you should probably contact DPS, not that they'll have any suspects, but anyway flip to the next page and it's like the article was never written.

I would like to clarify that I can only speak for myself and should not be taken as a representative of anyone else's views. I don't expect everyone to read the article and start contemplating their own gender identity. If you are happy in the body you were born in, then I cannot lie, I envy you. I am happy to be me, but just look at the hate expressed in some of these comments, I know my life would be easier if I was not trans. I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm not looking to change everyone's views, that would be impossible. While it would be nice, I'm not looking to make everyone even understand. All I ask for is respect. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them; however, so often when people don't agree with differing sexual orientations and gender identities it turns to hatred.

Once again I will stress that I am not trying to push any views on anyone else, I am purely responding to the biblical responses that have been posted. "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than to have two hands or two feet and to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into the hell of fire" (Matthew 18:8-9). I can lead a better life as a man than as a woman because I am comfortable as myself and happier. I stumble when I try to be someone I'm not. If that means altering my body to achieve that, it sounds like God is okay with that. "God does not judge by external appearance" (Galatians 2:6). So if you are Christian remember that "There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. So who, then, are you to judge your neighbor?" (James 4:12)

Thank you to everyone who has shown your support to Cayden and me.

p.s. My drag name is Charlie Chapless not Chapless Charlie.

Submitted by Person Man (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 6:11pm.

No one has the right to approve or disapprove of a lifestyle choice. I was born a man, and I have always and will always identify as a man, but if someone else with my birth story identifies differently as an adult, I cannot tell them not to.

With that being said, the world exists in men and women. It is absurdly unfair to expect the overwhelming majority of the world to walk on broken glass to accommodate the needs of a fraction of a percentage of the global community.

There is no fault in this situation; it is not a transgendered person's fault that their mind operates the way it does, and it is not the black-and-white, MALE/FEMALE community's fault that transgendered people don't exactly fall into place.

It is not too much to expect others to accept you for who you are. It is not too much to expect that you receive an equal shot at a job opportunity or a research grant or a scholarship. But it is too much to expect people to bend over backwards to fit you into their way of life.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 4:30pm.

OK, I get it. If we agree with post-gender ideology, then we are EDUCATED. If we disagree, we are NOT EDUCATED, and therefore need a remedial course. We need RE-EDUCATION, which is how people got their minds right in Communist China, for example.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 8:58pm.

China is not pure communism society anymore. And we don't have to re-education at least in last 30 years. Your impression on China is too old to be true.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 2:48pm.

Many of the bigoted comments on here make me ashamed to call myself a University of Michigan alum. It is evident that a one credit course in diversity (racial, sexual, and gender) awareness should be a mandatory requirement for graduation.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 5:21pm.

Ah yes, we must re-educate the masses.

What was it at the gates? Oh yeah, "hard work will set you free."

Welcome to the brave new world of "progressive" America.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 19, 2009 - 8:09am.

It is not about education or in your case some neoconservative tin foil hat wearing Limbaugh style attack of "rededucation." This is about developing empathy in our students. Honestly, some of the comments goes to show empathy is a character trait become less common in America.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 2:21pm.

"A study in Psychology Today indicated that “roughly 1 per 30,000 adult males and 1 per 100,000 adult females seek sex-reassignment surgery.” "-the article

Michigan's own professor emerita Lynn Conway says it's at least ten times more than that: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html#Article -- for example, according to her analysis, at least 1 in 2500 male-born Americans have had genital reassignment surgery -- and they're a small minority among all transgendered people. It's not discussed there, but female-born transgendered people are probably also about equal in prevalence to male-born ones.

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 5:14pm.

Ah yes, one of the U of Ms most famous trannies says that they're a lot more common than people think, even though this topic is outside of her/his/its area of expertise.

Nope, no conflict of interest there. Must be the unbiased truth.

Uh huh, sure...

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on February 18, 2009 - 5:39pm.

Doing some basic analysis of public data, making conservative estimates of what this data implies, and performing sanity checks on statistical claims is well within the expertise of an engineer, or really any educated person. Why don't you read that article and point out this bias you're so sure is in it? Otherwise, take your unfounded FUD elsewhere.

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